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Old 10-29-2010, 07:23 PM   #1
pfun41
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brake pedal going to floor!

my brake pedal was kinda soft and someone suggested i flush the fluid. so i flushed the fluid and then the pedal would go to the floor. the one detail here us that before i put new fluid in i accidentally ran the MC dry of the old fluid . so i got a new napa master cilender. i bench bled it by holding my finger over the front port and pumping the piston. until it came out the rear and vice versa. installed it and it sat overnight. today i bled it but i didnt know if there was a certain was to do it since the lines had been disconnected so i just did it normally/ i had my dad hold the brake pedal down while i opened the bleeder and let it flow through a tube into a container, i didnt let any air back in. i went RR LR RF LF. the pedal goes to the floor with almost no effort. im going to bench bleed it again but i have to get this working by monday.
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Old 10-29-2010, 07:49 PM   #2
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Don't need to bench bleed it. You need to finish bleeding the brakes.

Does the pedel get hard at all, whne you just pump the brakes? If so how many pumps?

When I last did a master swap I had to pump the brakes 10-12 times before it would get hard the first couple times. Then I got it down to 2 or 3 pumps for each brake.
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Old 10-29-2010, 08:11 PM   #3
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If you put on a new master cylinder, you will need to bleed each wheel numerous times to get the air to the wheels. The person working the brakes needs to pump the brakes numerous times until the pedal gets stiff....then you bleed the wheel. Then repeat until you get air, once you get all the air out and are getting a solid stream of fluid, you can move to the next wheel. If you didn't use a whole bottle of fluid, you probably didn't do it right.
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Old 10-29-2010, 08:40 PM   #4
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i took the MC out and bench bled it again. i used the supplied plugs but drilled em and put tubes in them which i them routed back to the resorvior. then i pumped the piston. i got some bubbles through the tubes. when i bled the brakes i just had my dad hold the pedal down and i opened the bleeder. when the pedal got to the bottom i closed the bleeder. just repeated that. no pumping. i didnt know you were supposed to pump em. i used i think about 3/4 of a bottle of this.
[imghttp://shop.advanceautoparts.com/wcsstore/CVWEB/staticproductimage//N3222/full/7060009_pst_as401_pri_detl.jpg[/img]

that was after i used the rest of another bottle of the same stuff to fill the MC resoirvior.
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Old 10-29-2010, 08:56 PM   #5
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Did you adjust the screw on the back of the master cylinder as well? They usually have to be slightly adjusted. If this is not adjusted you may not be getting full pedal travel on the MC.
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Old 10-29-2010, 09:03 PM   #6
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Originally Posted by HawkRdr View Post
Did you adjust the screw on the back of the master cylinder as well? They usually have to be slightly adjusted. If this is not adjusted you may not be getting full pedal travel on the MC.
i watched the brake cilender on the rear while my dad pushed the pedal and stold him to stop when i saw it moving. it was already halfway down before it started moving. i adjusted it out and after bench bleeding i helde the MC in position (not bolted). my dad pushed the pedal and it only moved a little before it strted pushing the MC out of place. so its adjusted pretty well.
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Old 10-29-2010, 09:19 PM   #7
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Maybe a busted brake line course you'd see fluid somewhere
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Old 10-29-2010, 10:41 PM   #8
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Maybe a busted brake line course you'd see fluid somewhere
all four corner got some pressure since the fluid was coming out, so i dont think its a busted line. and id definately notice the huge puddle of fluid.
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Old 10-30-2010, 10:11 AM   #9
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hard to say not being there, but I have received many BAD master cylinders from napa, or any other parts store for that matter, before. Also could be a problem with your abs system
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Old 10-30-2010, 03:00 PM   #10
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Section 06-06: Brake System, Hydraulic 1996 F-150, F-250, F-350, Bronco and F-Super Duty Workshop Manual
SERVICE PROCEDURES
Hydraulic System Bleeding
WARNING: BRAKE FLUID CONTAINS POLYGLYCOL ETHERS AND POLYGLYCOLS. AVOID CONTACT WITH EYES. WASH HANDS THOROUGHLY AFTER HANDLING. IF BRAKE FLUID CONTACTS EYES, FLUSH EYES WITH RUNNING WATER FOR 15 MINUTES. GET MEDICAL ATTENTION IF IRRITATION PERSISTS. IF TAKEN INTERNALLY, DRINK WATER AND INDUCE VOMITING. GET MEDICAL ATTENTION IMMEDIATELY.
NOTE: When any part of the hydraulic system has been disconnected for repair or replacement, air may get into the lines and cause spongy brake pedal action. This requires the bleeding of the hydraulic system after it has been properly connected so all air is expelled from the brake cylinders and lines. The hydraulic system can be bled manually or with pressure bleeding equipment Rotunda Brake Bleeder 104-00064 or equivalent.
Ford High-Performance DOT 3 Brake Fluid C6AZ-19542-AA or -BA or equivalent DOT 3 fluid meeting Ford specification ESA-M6C25-A must be used in the brake system.
Never use brake fluid that has been drained from the hydraulic system or that has been standing in an open container for an extended period of time.
Brake Master Cylinder Bleeding, Bench
WARNING: BRAKE FLUID CONTAINS POLYGLYCOL ETHERS AND POLYGLYCOLS. AVOID CONTACT WITH EYES. WASH HANDS THOROUGHLY AFTER HANDLING. IF BRAKE FLUID CONTACTS EYES, FLUSH EYES WITH RUNNING WATER FOR 15 MINUTES. GET MEDICAL ATTENTION IF IRRITATION PERSISTS. IF TAKEN INTERNALLY, DRINK WATER AND INDUCE VOMITING. GET MEDICAL ATTENTION IMMEDIATELY.
Support the brake master cylinder body in a vise, and fill both fluid brake master cylinder reservoirs with Ford High-Performance DOT 3 Brake Fluid C6AZ-19542-AA or -BA or equivalent DOT 3 fluid meeting Ford specification ESA-M6C25-A.
Install plugs in the front and rear brake outlet ports. Bleed the front brake system first.
Loosen the plug in the front brake outlet port. Depress the primary piston slowly to force the air out of the brake master cylinder (2140).
Tighten plug while piston is depressed or air will enter the brake master cylinder.

Repeat this procedure until air ceases to exit at the outlet port.
Repeat Steps 3, 4 and 5, for the rear brake outlet port with the front brake outlet plugged.
Tighten the plugs and try to depress the piston. The piston will not depress if all air bubbles are out of the brake system.
Install the brake master cylinder filler cap (2162).
Install the brake master cylinder in the vehicle and perform Pressure Bleeding procedure in this section.

Brake Master Cylinder Bleeding, On-Vehicle
When a brake master cylinder has been installed, or the brake system emptied or partially emptied, fluid may not flow from the wheel cylinder bleeder screws during normal bleeding. It may be necessary to prime the brake master cylinder using the following procedure.

Use a tubing wrench to remove the front brake tube (2264) and the brake master cylinder outlet rear tube from the brake master cylinder.

Install short brake tubes in the brake master cylinder and position them so that they curve into the brake master cylinder reservoir, and the ends of the tubes are submerged in brake fluid.

Fill the brake master cylinder reservoir with new Ford High-Performance DOT 3 Brake Fluid C6AZ-19542-AA or -BA or equivalent DOT 3 fluid meeting Ford specification ESA-M6C25-A.

CAUTION: Brake fluid is harmful to painted and plastic surfaces. If brake fluid is spilled onto a painted or plastic surface, immediately wash it with water.

Have an assistant pump the brakes until clear, bubble-free fluid flows from both brake tubes.

Remove the short brake tubes and reinstall the front brake tube and brake master cylinder outlet rear tube (2B253) on the brake master cylinder.

Bleed each brake tube at the brake master cylinder using the following procedure:

Have an assistant pump the brake pedal (2455) 10 times and then hold firm pressure on the brake pedal.
Loosen the rearmost brake tube fittings with a tubing wrench until a stream of brake fluid comes out. Have an assistant maintain pressure on the brake pedal until the brake tube fitting is tightened again.
Repeat this operation until clear, bubble-free fluid comes out from around the tube fitting.

Refill the brake master cylinder reservoir as necessary.
Repeat this bleeding operation at the front brake tube fittings.

System Gravity Bleeding

If any of the brake tubes, disc brake calipers (2B120), or rear wheel cylinders (2261) have been removed, it may be helpful to prime the system by gravity bleeding. This should be done after the brake master cylinder is primed and bled.

Fill the brake master cylinder with new Heavy-Duty Brake Fluid C6AZ-19542-AA or -BA or equivalent DOT 3 fluid meeting Ford specification ESA-M6C25-A.

Loosen both of the wheel cylinder bleeder screws (2208) and leave them open until clear brake fluid flows. Be sure to check the brake master cylinder reservoir (2K478) fluid level often and do not let it run dry.

Tighten the wheel cylinder bleeder screws to 7-9 Nm (62-80 lb-in).

One at a time, loosen the caliper bleeder screws. Leave the bleeder screws open until clear fluid flows. Check the fluid level often in the brake master cylinder reservoir and do not let it run dry.

Tighten the caliper bleeder screws to 17-24 Nm (13-18 lb-ft).
After the brake system has been primed, bleed the brake system at each wheel (1007).


Manual Bleeding
Dual Brake System Hydraulic Brake Master Cylinder
WARNING: BRAKE FLUID CONTAINS POLYGLYCOL ETHERS AND POLYGLYCOLS. AVOID CONTACT WITH EYES. WASH HANDS THOROUGHLY AFTER HANDLING. IF BRAKE FLUID CONTACTS EYES, FLUSH WITH RUNNING WATER FOR 15 MINUTES. GET MEDICAL ATTENTION IF IRRITATION PERSISTS. IF TAKEN INTERNALLY, DRINK WATER AND INDUCE VOMITING. GET MEDICAL ATTENTION IMMEDIATELY.
CAUTION: DO NOT allow the brake master cylinder reservoir to run dry during the bleeding operation. Keep the brake master cylinder reservoir filled with the specified brake fluid. Never reuse the brake fluid that has been drained from the hydraulic system.
NOTE: Bleed the primary and secondary hydraulic brake systems separately.

Bleed one brake cylinder at a time.
On F-150, F-250, F-350 and Bronco vehicles, start the bleeding at the RH rear wheel cylinder and then at the LH rear wheel cylinder. After completing, proceed to the bleeder valve on the rear anti-lock brake system (RABS) valve. Then proceed to bleed the front brakes, starting with the right front brake, and finish bleeding on the left front brake.
On F-Super Duty vehicles, start the bleeding at the right rear brake, then the left rear brake. After completing, proceed to bleed the right front brake and then the left front brake.
Keep the brake master cylinder reservoir filled with the specified Ford High Performance DOT 3 Brake Fluid C6AZ-19542-AA or equivalent DOT 3 fluid meeting Ford specification ESA-M6C25-A. Never use brake fluid that has been drained from the system.
If there is reason to believe air has entered the brake master cylinder, bleed as follows:

On the brake master cylinder reservoir, loosen the master cylinder-to-hydraulic line fittings.

Wrap a shop cloth around the tubing below the fitting to absorb escaping brake fluid.

Push the brake pedal down slowly to the floor of the cab. This will force air trapped in the brake master cylinder to escape at the fitting.

Hold the brake pedal down and tighten the fitting. Release the brake pedal. Do not release the brake pedal until the fitting is tightened or air will re-enter the brake master cylinder.

Repeat this procedure until air ceases to escape at the fitting.

Place a box wrench on the RH wheel cylinder bleeder screw. Attach a rubber drain tube to the wheel cylinder bleeder screw making sure the end of the tube fits snugly around the wheel cylinder bleeder screw.

Submerge the free end of the tube in a container partially filled with clean brake fluid. Loosen the wheel cylinder bleeder screw approximately three-quarters of a turn.

Slowly push the brake pedal all the way down. Close the wheel cylinder bleeder screw, and return the brake pedal to the fully-released position. Repeat this operation until air bubbles no longer appear at the submerged end of the bleeder tube.

When the fluid is completely free of air bubbles, close the wheel cylinder bleeder screw and remove the bleeder tube.

Repeat this procedure at the LH rear wheel cylinder. Refill the brake master cylinder reservoir as needed.

CAUTION: Do not reuse brake fluid that has been bled from the system.

Place a box wrench on the bleeder fitting on the rear anti-lock brake system (RABS) valve. Attach a rubber drain tube to the bleeder fitting making sure the end of the tube fits snugly around the bleeder fitting.

Submerge the free end of the tube in a container partially filled with clean brake fluid. Loosen the bleeder fitting approximately three-quarters of a turn.






Slowly press the brake pedal all the way down. Close the bleeder fitting, and return the brake pedal to the fully released position. Repeat this operation until air bubbles no longer appear at the submerged end of the bleeder tube.

When the fluid is completely free of air bubbles, close the bleeder fitting and remove the bleeder tube.

Bleed the front brakes starting with the right front brake and then the left front brake as described in Steps 6-10 of this procedure.

When the bleeding operation is complete, fill the brake master cylinder reservoir to the maximum level line.


Pressure Bleeding

WARNING: BRAKE FLUID CONTAINS POLYGLYCOL ETHERS AND POLYGLYCOLS. AVOID CONTACT WITH EYES. WASH HANDS THOROUGHLY AFTER HANDLING. IF BRAKE FLUID CONTACTS EYES, FLUSH WITH RUNNING WATER FOR 15 MINUTES. GET MEDICAL ATTENTION IF IRRITATION PERSISTS. IF TAKEN INTERNALLY, DRINK WATER AND INDUCE VOMITING. GET MEDICAL ATTENTION IMMEDIATELY.

NOTE: Bleed the longest lines first. Be sure the bleeder tank contains enough specified brake fluid, Ford High-Performance DOT 3 Brake Fluid C6AZ-19542-AA or -BA or DOT 3 equivalent meeting Ford specification ESA-M6C25-A to complete the bleeding operation. Charge the tank with approximately 69-206 kPa (10-30 psi) of air pressure. Never exceed 345 kPa (50 psi) of pressure. Never re-use brake fluid that has been drained from the hydraulic system.



Clean all dirt from the brake master cylinder filler cap.

Remove brake master cylinder filler cap and fill the brake master cylinder reservoir with the specified brake fluid.

NOTE: Master cylinder pressure bleeder adapter tools are available from various manufacturers of pressure bleeding equipment. Follow the instructions of the manufacturer when installing the adapter.



Install pressure bleeder adapter Rotunda Brake Bleeder 104-00064 or equivalent to the brake master cylinder reservoir, and attach bleeder tank hose to fitting on adapter.

Place a 3/8-inch box wrench on RH wheel cylinder bleeder screw. Attach a bleeder tube snugly around wheel cylinder bleeder screw.

Open valve on bleeder tank to admit pressurized brake fluid to the brake master cylinder reservoir.

Submerge free end of tube in a partially filled container with clean brake fluid and loosen wheel cylinder bleeder screw.






When air bubbles no longer appear in the fluid at the submerged end of the bleeder tube, close the wheel cylinder bleeder screw and remove tube.

Continue bleeding rest of the system going in order from the LH rear wheel cylinder (2262), then proceed to the front RH disc brake caliper, ending with front LH front disc brake caliper (2B121).

When the bleeding operation is completed, close bleeder tank valve and remove the tank hose from adapter fitting.

Remove the pressure bleeder adapter tool.

Fill brake master cylinder reservoir to MAX fill level line indicated on reservoir.

Install brake master cylinder filler cap.


Anti-Lock Brake System Bleeding

SPECIAL SERVICE TOOL(S) REQUIRED Description Tool Number
Anti-Lock Brake Adapter (Bleeder Box) T90P-50-ALA
Anti-Lock Brake Adapter
(Jumper Cable) T93T-50-ALA


CAUTION: Perform this procedure only if the Hydraulic Control Unit (HCU) has been replaced. Follow conventional bleed procedures if the HCU is not being replaced.

Perform Pressure Bleeding procedure in this section.
Connect Anti-Lock Brake Adapter T90P-50-ALA (bleeder box) and Anti-Lock Brake Adapter T93T-50-ALA (jumper cable).

Press down on the brake pedal and depress the VALVES button on the bleeder box (brake pedal will fall).

Release the VALVES button and release the brake pedal.

Repeat Steps 3 and 4 once more.

Depress the MOTOR START button and let the pump motor run for one minute.

Perform Pressure Bleeding procedure in this section.


Item Part Number Description
1 T90P-50-ALA Anti-Lock Brake Adapter (Part of T90P-50-ALA)
2 Bleed/Harness Selector (Part of T90P-50-ALA)
3 Green MOTOR ON Lamp (Part of T90P-50-ALA)
4 Red MOTOR OFF Lamp
(Part of T90P-50-ALA)
5 Valve Button
(Part of T90P-50-ALA)
6 Abort Button
(Part of T90P-50-ALA)
7 Motor Start Button
(Part of T90P-50-ALA)
==


BTW, 4WABS Hydraulic Control Unit (HCU) Bleeding Procedure (DIY) Source: by SigEpBlue (Steve) at FSB
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Old 10-30-2010, 07:37 PM   #11
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Tried bleeding the brakes again today.was getting a lot of bubbles but now it leaks from the. Rear outlet port. Unless someone knows why its suddenly leaking I'm taking it to a shop. Anyone know a reasonable price for all of this to get taken care of?
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Old 10-30-2010, 08:28 PM   #12
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I'd Gravity Bleed the system and make sure the MC doesnt run dry in the proccess. Than Bleed it by RR, LR, RF, Rabs and than LF. Yes there is a bleeder on the ABS unit and you may have air traped in it. For me 99% of the time I grvity bleed a system it gets all the air out for me.
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Old 10-30-2010, 08:45 PM   #13
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I'd Gravity Bleed the system and make sure the MC doesnt run dry in the proccess. Than Bleed it by RR, LR, RF, Rabs and than LF. Yes there is a bleeder on the ABS unit and you may have air traped in it. For me 99% of the time I grvity bleed a system it gets all the air out for me.
theres a leak on the fittting, no point in bleeding it till the leak is gone. and there isnt a bleeder on the 4wabs unit, i looked.
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Old 10-30-2010, 09:18 PM   #14
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theres a leak on the fittting, no point in bleeding it till the leak is gone. and there isnt a bleeder on the 4wabs unit, i looked.
As in the bleeder fitting or the fitting going into the wheel cylinder?

As for the leak, could have got some junk between the mating surfaces :

I believe you have to crack the lines, kinda like you do if you can't turn the bleeder on old wheel cylinders. :

KC
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Old 10-30-2010, 10:11 PM   #15
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As in the bleeder fitting or the fitting going into the wheel cylinder?

As for the leak, could have got some junk between the mating surfaces :

I believe you have to crack the lines, kinda like you do if you can't turn the bleeder on old wheel cylinders. :

KC


the part thats disconnected is where its leaking from. its the rear brake line to adapter connection thats leaking.

really if it wasnt leaking i would just finish doing it myself, but ive used like 3-4 bottles of brake fluid doing this. im just sick of dealing with it and want it fixed but i dont want to pay a shop a ton of money to do domething simple.
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Old 10-30-2010, 11:00 PM   #16
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Yeah, that's your Integral Brake Master Cylinder Fluid Control (Proportioning) Valve. THAT is why your pedal feels like Spongebob Squarepants.



Quote:
Brake Pressure Control Valve

The brake pressure control valve regulates the hydraulic pressure in the rear brake system. It is located between the rear brake system's inlet and outlet ports in the main valve. When the brake pedal (2455) is applied, the full brake fluid pressure passes through the brake pressure control valve to the rear brake system until the valve's split point is reached. Above its split point, the brake pressure control valve begins to reduce the hydraulic pressure to the rear brakes, creating a balanced braking condition between the front and rear wheels to minimize rear wheel lock-up during hard braking.

In case of the front brake system malfunction, the brake master cylinder fluid control valve has a bypass feature, which allows full hydraulic pressure to the rear brake system.
Mine WAS leaking slightly, around the perimeter though, so my pedal doesn't always feel like it's in great shape. The system does stop the truck well, though. I took it apart to see if it was something I could fix, but only found a VERY-specially shaped rubber seal, and a spool valve (might've been a spring too, I can't remember). Mine no longer leaks, but I'm sure that's temporary, and probably only stopped due to corrosion. That or I got lucky and the O-ring reseated itself.

I'm going to get a whole new valve soon, and I'd suggest you do the same. You can only get them from a Ford parts counter, or at least I have yet to find another source. They run about $50, IIRC.

I do feel immensely stupid for not fixing this problem on my own vehicle earlier. Of all people, I should know the value of having a perfectly functioning braking system, and the liability of having a malfunctioning braking system. The smell of fluid shooting out and burning on the header after hard braking should've been my first clue.

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Old 10-30-2010, 11:22 PM   #17
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Yeah, that's your Integral Brake Master Cylinder Fluid Control (Proportioning) Valve. THAT is why your pedal feels like Spongebob Squarepants.



Mine WAS leaking slightly, around the perimeter though, so my pedal doesn't always feel like it's in great shape. The system does stop the truck well, though. I took it apart to see if it was something I could fix, but only found a VERY-specially shaped rubber seal, and a spool valve (might've been a spring too, I can't remember). Mine no longer leaks, but I'm sure that's temporary, and probably only stopped due to corrosion. That or I got lucky and the O-ring reseated itself.

I'm going to get a whole new valve soon, and I'd suggest you do the same. You can only get them from a Ford parts counter, or at least I have yet to find another source. They run about $50, IIRC.

I do feel immensely stupid for not fixing this problem on my own vehicle earlier. Of all people, I should know the value of having a perfectly functioning braking system, and the liability of having a malfunctioning braking system. The smell of fluid shooting out and burning on the header after hard braking should've been my first clue.

how can you be shure? i was thinking maybe i split the line at the flare or something. i also figured out that i never got all the air out. the old cilender i think was damaged when i bled them, resulting in a crappy pedal. besides, wont the pedal stop being spongy once the rear brake shoes contact the drum?
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Old 10-30-2010, 11:28 PM   #18
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Not if there's a leak, no. If it's leaking, there's no way you will maintain adequate system pressure, or in the worst-case scenario, it will fail to hold pressure in an emergency stop situation.


I'm trying to figure out WTH that black thing is on your line.
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Old 10-31-2010, 12:03 AM   #19
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Not if there's a leak, no. If it's leaking, there's no way you will maintain adequate system pressure, or in the worst-case scenario, it will fail to hold pressure in an emergency stop situation.


I'm trying to figure out WTH that black thing is on your line.
thats not mine, i pulled the pic from a how to, they were using a piece of tube and a screw to block off the linewhile the MC was replaced.
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Old 11-01-2010, 05:29 PM   #20
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I'm having this problem - I hoping that it is just in need of bleeding - will search for leaks at the noted locations.
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